Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 14, 2014 Okay so after a night of 3rd shift spent with a blank mind, I feel I was being a brat yesterday. I do want my poetry to be better. What changes I make are up to me but in truth I should be more open to criticism especially when I seem to so Freely give it. Foxbunny, you had some insight, and I was wondering if you had any more or would like to elaborate upon what was suggested yesterday. And if anyone else has some constructive advice, feel free to share. What do you like or dislike about the content, grammar, or structure of this poem, keeping in mind that it is intended to be a bit, shall I say, chaotic. On 12/14/2014 at 1:51 AM, Tigris Umbrae said: A poem I was struck with inspiration at random per the usual and I must let it out before it fades away or dominates my mind. What is, A story without a plot, A rhyme without reason, Some times more beautiful perhaps Ah I embrace the existence of some in all their frivolous nature. However, I am quite perplexed at how many assume that some of the following can exist meaningfully without their mate and counter part Would you divide true Gemini? Or part the hand from his work? For what is land without the water, but a dull mass of dirt. Period. End of statement, not of song: What is lyric without voice, free will without choice? Hmm... Oh my this brings more into my mind, I'll let it out lest I endlessly list the meaningless to myself in silence. What is harmony without melody? Paint without canvass? Medium without foundation? What a thought, true freedom without direction beautiful for a moment but a moment only. Perhaps this is the pitfall of my unfinished works. A temporary vanity that dissipates into a forgotten thought. Don't mistake my meaning, (for I'm not sure if there is one.) there is an attractive quality about such creation, but it pulls toward a bigger picture not yet seen. Perhaps, as memories, fragmented into minute pieces, that without the final sliver, will never be anything greater than Spare change on a dresser of value yet overlooked and long forgotten. I ask you now what I asked myself, In rhetoric none the less, but I ask, What is a character without a story? What is a tale without a single soul? Which was first? chicken or egg? Some say egg but I say nay for a chicken will survive without the egg but without a chicken, a simple elipse is without life and placed hardboiled into salad. Put them together and the egg lives, but the hen lives more purposefully. Alas that fits more into the Grand scheme, a master theme which still lacks bearing on this nonsense I spew in abundance. What is a creator without Creation. Is a story worth writing without a character, or is it become a gentle background without a focal point? Is a character void without a story in which to live? Or was the story there all along, composed in the footsteps and wake of our beloved protagonist. Or was the character shaped out of joys and hardships of her own history. Who wrote who The paradox of biography is revealed to me now. What is white without black? On 12/14/2014 at 2:49 AM, foxbunny said: I think you have some good raw material there. Remember that everything in a poem means. Every punctuation mark or space or capital letter. And the first and last words of a line are also very important (the last mores than the first). Paring things down is very hard, but you end up with a much stronger poem. You might change that section near the beginning by dropping some words, losing the punctuation and changing the spacing. For example: what is plot without story reason without rhyme more beautiful embrace existence frivolous If you really want something to blow your mind you might look up "syncopated sonnet." Tyehimba is an absolute genius with poetry that I still can't even wrap my head around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 14, 2014 I'm always happy to help (I'm planning to be an English teacher shortly). The first thing to consider with poetry is the need to cut down language to the most necessary parts. I've heard this called "making an efficient use of language." In other words, you only want to say what needs to be said (maybe a little less). Next you want to look at your ending words. These are some of the strongest means to convey your message. These should most often be either be concrete nouns or strong action verbs. You do a pretty good job with this already. Some examples that could use a bit of a polish are "purposefully" and "than." Now, for this piece in particular, I would suggest breaking it into a series of poems because there are a lot of ideas being explored. You have a lot of really great raw material here. While you're considering end words, consider words that are highly charged, ambiguous, and can convey tension. The line "Spare change on a dresser" might be broken into two lines because both "change" and "dresser" can be nouns or verbs. "Spare change" can be either a description of coins, or it can be a request. Consider enjambment (the continuation of one line into the next without punctuation) when you capitalize. It's very unusual for contemporary poetry to have capitals at the beginning of each line. It's probably just a matter of having used Word or something similar to compose because it loves to put caps at the beginning of every new line. That's something you can fix manually. Just like end words, punctuation needs to be planned. Should this have a comma? Is this one thought? Should there be a period? Every punctuation mark stops the reader or slows them down. Consider how that can be used to make meaning. So instead of "rhyme without reason" you might try "rhyme, reason" or other similar changes. In general you will want to avoid (or at least greatly limit) anything other than concrete language and also avoid "poetic" language unless you feel it is absolutely necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 14, 2014 In my mind this almost felt like the words of an eccentric character. An unknown voice speaking before a curtain is pulled back to reveal an opening scene. Seems my mind likes to express different thoughts with unique voice. I want certain areas to express themselves poetically to a certain degree. Let me make an edit and see where we are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 14, 2014 Look at the poem "Girl" by Jamaica Kincaid. That will give you some different ideas if you want to differentiate sections. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 14, 2014 Okay I will. I'm going to write it out on paper first this time which should help too. It should be up tomorrow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Direlda† 0 Report post Posted December 15, 2014 I recommend getting a copy of A Poetry Handbook: A Prose Guide to Understanding and Writing Poetry by Mary Oliver and potentially a copy of The Sounds of Poetry: A Brief Guide by Robert Pinsky. Both provide useful overviews of aspects of poetry with examples of what they are discussing. I'll read through your poem a second time tomorrow and get back to you on specific suggestions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 15, 2014 On 12/15/2014 at 6:41 AM, Direlda said: I recommend getting a copy of A Poetry Handbook: A Prose Guide to Understanding and Writing Poetry by Mary Oliver and potentially a copy of The Sounds of Poetry: A Brief Guide by Robert Pinsky. Both provide useful overviews of aspects of poetry with examples of what they are discussing. I'll read through your poem a second time tomorrow and get back to you on specific suggestions. Thank you Direlda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) sorry there was an image here, it was really big and it was text included in the post below Edited December 16, 2014 by Thomas Maltuin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 Movement One story without plot rhyme no reason they are beautiful I embrace them though frivoulous perplexing how you believe they have meaning without existance of contrasting thought Movement Two would you part gemeni or hands from their work without water land they till becomes dull mass of dirt End of Statement Not of song what lyric without voice has freewill without choice must I list the meaningless forever in silence Movement Three what is harmony without melody paint without canvass medium without foundation What a thought! true freedom without direction majestic for a moment only a moment the pitfall of my unfinished labor makeshift vanity dissapated into forgotten dreams make no mistake such creations bear certain appeal yet unseen essence draws them into the void as memories fragmented in pieces without one final sliver become spare change on the table overlooked forgotten though of value upon assembly Movement Four what is a character without a tale? what is a novel without a soul to speak of which was first chicken or egg to those who say egg I say "nay" a chicken will thrive without young the simple ellipse without a mother hardboiled in a salad together they are whole the one gains life the other lives abundantly The Grand Scheme! A Master Theme! can there be a creator without creation Final Movement Is a book worth writing without characters to fill it? or would it be filled, with lands and backgrounds of ambiguity? Is a person annulled without a life to speak of? or is he a mannequin with a simple, painted, face perhaps joys stories hardships manifest history in footsteps- have shaped the wake of The protagonist who once wrote, "I now understand, paradox of biography. what is white without black?" ~Thomas Maltuin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 Mind... Blown... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Direlda† 0 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 You did a good job of tightening up this poem! Breaking it up into movements definitely helped. As did the removal/changing of the prose lines, which didn't feel like they fit into the previous version of the poem. Some of the spacing seems more distracting than adding to the poem. For instance, line 13 of Movement Two: "list the meaningless" could probably do without the extra spaces within the line. The extra spaces break up the flow of the line, making the reader read each word as its own entity. I would recommend reading back through the poem and making sure you want the reader to pause everywhere you have added in extra spaces In Movement Four, I feel that lines 1-4 should be alternating sides, such that lines 1 and 3 would be left-justified and lines 2 and 4 would be right justified. And lines 5-10 of Movement Four might be better as their own stanza. I understand that with this first stanza of Movement Four you are probably trying to show two halves that come together to make a whole--as seen by stanza three, which is centered. However, right now lines 1-4 and lines 5-10 don't feel like they belong in the same stanza. In the Final Movement I want to read each half of lines 6-9 as their own unit as well as across. So I keep stumbling over that section. Overall a good poem and I like where you've taken it! ^-^;;~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 On 12/16/2014 at 3:35 AM, foxbunny said: Mind... Blown... ummmm. thank you :3 On 12/16/2014 at 4:22 AM, Direlda said: You did a good job of tightening up this poem! Breaking it up into movements definitely helped. As did the removal/changing of the prose lines, which didn't feel like they fit into the previous version of the poem. Some of the spacing seems more distracting than adding to the poem. For instance, line 13 of Movement Two: "list the meaningless" could probably do without the extra spaces within the line. The extra spaces break up the flow of the line, making the reader read each word as its own entity. I would recommend reading back through the poem and making sure you want the reader to pause everywhere you have added in extra spaces In Movement Four, I feel that lines 1-4 should be alternating sides, such that lines 1 and 3 would be left-justified and lines 2 and 4 would be right justified. And lines 5-10 of Movement Four might be better as their own stanza. I understand that with this first stanza of Movement Four you are probably trying to show two halves that come together to make a whole--as seen by stanza three, which is centered. However, right now lines 1-4 and lines 5-10 don't feel like they belong in the same stanza. In the Final Movement I want to read each half of lines 6-9 as their own unit as well as across. So I keep stumbling over that section. Overall a good poem and I like where you've taken it! ^-^;;~ thank you, i had the same thought about "list the meaningless" but i was unsure so i will edit that. i see your point about the seperation of stanzas. i will look at that a bit more closely. also in the final movement, i considered making it readable across as well, i'm not sure how to fix it "as is" any suggestions? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 I decided to post a new copy for the edit so we can track progress. sorry it takes up so much space. Movement One story without plot rhyme no reason they are beautiful I embrace them though frivoulous perplexing how you believe they have meaning without existance of contrasting thought Movement Two would you part gemeni or hands from their work without water land they till becomes dull mass of dirt End of Statement Not of song what lyric without voice has freewill without choice must I list the meaningless forever in silence Movement Three what is harmony without melody paint without canvass medium without foundation What a thought! true freedom without direction majestic for a moment only a moment the pitfall of my unfinished labor makeshift vanity dissapated into forgotten dreams make no mistake such creations bear certain appeal yet unseen essence draws them into the void as memories fragmented in pieces without one final sliver become spare change on the table overlooked forgotten though of value upon assembly Movement Four what is a character without a tale? what is a novel without a soul to speak of which was first chicken or egg to those who say egg I say "nay" a chicken will thrive without young the simple ellipse without a mother- hardboiled in a salad together they are whole the one gains life the other lives abundantly The Grand Scheme! A Master Theme! can there be a creator without creation Final Movement Is a book worth writing without characters to fill it? or would it be filled, with lands and backgrounds of ambiguity? Is a person annulled without a life to retell? or is he a mannequin with a simple, painted, face perhaps we find joys, within my stories, hardships, experiences, manifest history, living with in footsteps- have shaped Identity in the wake of The protagonist who once wrote, "I now understand, paradox of biography. what is white without black?" ~Thomas Maltuin in movement four i left "to speak of" & "which was first" in the same line to keep the thought moving while shifting to my metaphorical poultry i kept "to speak of" in left alignment so as to finish the previous stanza while, optionally, starting the next thought. the overspacing in "list the meaningless" is now gone in the final movement i am attemting to make the split section readable down the center as well as on each side and accross. i think its possible, but it doesn't read smooth like it is. if anyone has a suggestion, i'm all ears. if i can't get it to work i'll have to figure out something else and remove the center stanza, i like the left and right being seperate thoughts. 1 Sahleh reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 16, 2014 A technique that you can try is a modification of cut-up. You rearrange thoughts or words to create new meaning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 could you, by chance, elaborate on that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 It's most often done with prose, but it can be done with poetry. The literal method is to write out the text, cut the pages into strips and mix up the results. Literal cut-up does not always use intent, but is arbitrary. So for the above statements a modified cut-up might look like this: Poetry write out text mix up results literal literal done arbitrary A more traditional cut-up might look like this: Literal cut-up does not always use intent, but is done with prose—cut the pages into strips. It's most often to mix up the results. Write out the text arbitrary. The literal method; it can be done with poetry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 thats an interesting thought... i wonder if that will work without eliminating the meaning Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) You can use it as a technique to explore meaning. Changing word order, making associations that you might not otherwise. story without reason rhyme no plot Edited December 17, 2014 by foxbunny Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) perhaps joys, within stories, hardships, experiences, manifest histories, that {LIVE} within footsteps- have shaped the Identity in the wake of The protagonist i guess the ending will always be difficult Edited December 17, 2014 by Thomas Maltuin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) ok lets see what we have perhaps the manifestation of histories, experiences, stories, of footsteps within life, within joy, have been shaped in the wake of hardships endured by The Protagonist well its different thats certain at this point, i'm not sure if your critiquing me foxbunny, or practicing for class when you get your students to do things just for "the experience" Edited December 17, 2014 by Thomas Maltuin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 17, 2014 At this point I think you just need tools to help you say what you want to say and explore your own work. You have demonstrated that you are willing to make changes to improve your piece and are capable of modifying your work. From this point it's all just doing your REPs (Revise, Edit, Proofread) and trying out techniques. This is actually how I work with other writers (peers) in workshop. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 18, 2014 I definitely see that, however I don't like to over edit anything, I don't want to draw an apple and add so much or take away, to the point that it looks like an orange. I will be making changes but I consider this to be almost complete. I want to smooth it out for fluidity sake, and I want the final movement to pop. The last section should seal the main theme within the mind of the reader, or reveal a bigger picture. I will post actions I edit as I go from here to St least see if my changes add or take away, because I have figured out, that you can't see your own picture, when you are standing so close for so long. I hyper analyze and I will be needing to see through the eyes of others to get a clear image. How do you like the cut up versus the simpler examples previous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxbunny† 1 Report post Posted December 18, 2014 I like some aspects of both. I think the cut up is a little more interesting, but the regular version is clearer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomas, Maltuin 1 Report post Posted December 18, 2014 I definitely want clarity, I'm incoherent enough on my own [emoji14] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Direlda† 0 Report post Posted December 18, 2014 i was suggesting that you do something along these lines but with your own words: these vulpine words with love of aburaage form in soups and salads a sentence of double proportions it takes a bit of doing, but i know that you can do it-- i don't capitalise right now not capitalising is cool do be do be dool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
